Category: the Rant Board
All,
I feel that freedom scientific is lieing to us. They seem to promise this and promise that, claim that bugs are fixed when they really are not.
Let me give you some examples. Way back in jaws9 in outlook express jaws would read the email addresses in the 2 field as ;;;
I emailed fs about this and they said they are working on the problem and will have it fixed in jaws10. Well jaws 10 comes out and is still there. It's now jaws11 and the 2 field will still read ;;;;; instead of the actual addresses. So where's the issue that they were going to fix that issue? They probably didn't even look at it.
Another thing is the sluggishness when a webpage has more then 100 or something like that links on it. They said in jaws11 on their site that this issue was fixed. I'm still having the same issue and that's the way with all of their issues. They claim in their reports that it's fixed, but I still notice bugs and the same ones and some new ones. Why can't they just not lie on their site and be truthful? Let's face it if the bugs are still there so let's just say they are still there!
Troy
Well as much as I despise Freedom Scientific, we should consider the possibility that there could be other issues here. Granted I can't think of any right off the top of my head but sometimes an issue that seems fixed on one or more machines can still seem to be present elsewhere. And while the solution may be as simple as changing a setting in JAWS or another ap, that's a major reason I really liked Window-Eyes when I demoed it two years ago. It works out of the box with many more applications than JAWS ever did, and far better to boot. There's also a customer service problem with FS as far as I'm concerned. Most of us blind folks can't afford to pay the full price right away for, say, JAWS or another screen reader. Oh well, just get a Voc Rehab agency to pay for it. Wel there's just one problem. Let's say you demoed both JFW and Window-Eyes and decided, heaven forbid, that you liked Window-Eyes better. Well the voc rehab agency, especially many of the ones here in the States, are contractually obligated to Freedom Scientific and feel there's no difference between the two. Well here's where the real issue is. GW Micro offers you the option of making time payments so that you, not the agency, can pay for the software with your own money. Because most of the time if a rehab agency pays for software like that there are going to be some stipulations. If you buy it on time it's yours.
Yes, their customer support is horrible.
I just did a side by side testing of 5 screen readers on a 2.4ghz dual core machines running Windows XP sp3, the report will be published on our web site a few eeks down the road. Wish Jaws 10 the issue you describe with Outlook Express does not arise at all, in fact Jaws performed marginally better than the other screen readers at this task, ditto for web pages with over 100 links. I have used Jaws on a page with over 1200 links, it did take about 40 seconds to load, may be a tad bit less, but it is to be expected with that amount of links. I did not do a visual confirmation of how fast the page loaded without Jaws but I will do so with my sighted colleague tomorrow. Is it possible your system could have set up issues or malware slowing it down and it is not the screen reader´s fault? I am all for criticizing and fixing bugs, but I have also seen the other side of the issue where a user lambasts a certain screen reader software or manufacturer or a web page, only to find it was either the user´s ignorance or his faulty computer that was the real course. I kno Troy is more experienced than most of the users I´ve dealt with and is probably much closer to the truth, but still it is possible there might be something with his system, at least I am running the same versions and have not had this problem in either Jaws 9 nor 10 on my system. May be under Vista it is different, I´ve been fotunate enough to stick with XP until now when I can jump to 7.
I am all for choice and, in fact, as I work for an agency now, just started, there is a lot of discussion about giving users more choice over the software they work with. However if a user expects the center to service the software and the center pays for it it is a lot more expensive and less efficient to service 3 or 4 types of screen readers and having to specialize in them and deal with different vendors rather than just offering one and then leeting users pay for, and deal with, different ones on their own.
In our test I was very impressed with System Access, it is not quite on par with the big 3 yet, mostly because of lack of braille support and very lousy Excel support, but in Word 2007, for instance, SA outperformed all other screen readers in the tasks we defined and tested. NVDA is also coming into its own and definitely something most users should test and give feedback on, it is free after all.
We had horrendous problems with Window Eyes on this occasion and it crashed on a clean system, multiple times, I found the keyboard navigation unintuitive and I was shocked and disappointed. I did write them and ask for assistance and retesting the software because I know WE is a good product and something must´ve been wrong with this copy or the system combination or something, so hopefully it will come out better. Baed on our testing we cannot offer it to our clients without major stability improvement.
Cheers and be well
-B
Hi B.
Let us know your site so we can check that out.
Yes I myself is impressed with system access. Very good start to a new screen reader.
when fs broke jaws nine, SA rescued me until fs fixed a major bug in their coding they denied was there until a british technical support engeneer spelt it out to them. so fs need kick up bum that's true, though with ten and now eleven, things are going ok for me.
I will definitely post the site once the report is ready for public viewing. We just did the testing 3 days ago and have a massive Excel document with ratings. I also sent emails to all manufacturers for clarifications and questions. For instance, we didnot manage to get Jaws 10 to read the formatting in a Word document (bold, italic, underline etc), didnot find it in the options and 15 minute help file search did not produce an answer. Now I am thick on occasion so perhaps I plain missed it, but if anyone knows how to make Jaws read the formatting in Word 2007 please let me know, so far I gave FS 0 points for this particular part of the test, System Access read it perfectly without having to change any settings.
I have to strongly agree with B on this subject. Tools are as good as the user of that tool, and the equipment a tool is used on makes all the differents as well. When you are speaking of computers users treat these so differently, load rogue programs, use other tools that are spy ridden and they know it, but still use the tools. How dclean is the machine in question? As far as customer service, well they have no idea what your computer has been put through, so have to only go on most or machines that are correctly setup, and that have correct software installed, not cracks and such, so the answers you get may not be what solves the issues. Ask educated questions, problem solve with your rep, but the worst way to get what you want is anger. Smile. Sure they owe you the customer service, but they are not oblegated to take your abuse. The Tandem setup has taken lots of strain off the service rep, because she or he can control your computer, so does not have to fix the issue and teach computing skills at the same time. This is not a put down to anyone, but computer user skill levels are so widely different it is difficult to help everyone and get positive results. Also lying is not what a company needs to do. Software, computers, and internet, are for ever changing, so I think they do a great job keeping up. Jaws will never be like a set of eyes, but just think how much joy, agility, and information you get with it?
Peace.
Oddly enough, everytime I've called a tech support personel, I've had awesome experiences with them. That goes for humanware, levelstar and freedom scientific. Speaking of that, I have to call FS tomorrow, as my locking code has changed again, and my authorization came undone.
Make sure to write down the 20 digit authorization code, then you can get the locking code from Jaws help menu and use the two to generate the 100 digit license code from www.fsactivate.com. I've always done it this way to avoid having to keep track of the Jaws CDs, for one thing neither my netbook nor work computer have cd drives since this is the only thing I use them for.
I have to agree I've had excellent tech support from FS over the phone, emails get responded to, but it takes days so you got to actually call them.
I had issues with one guy at GW Micro who was rude and did not want to help me but I just called back, got another guy and had excellent support, he even got me in touch with their main programmer to answer my questions.
Same goes for Serotek, again, phone calls, not emails work.
I've personally had only good experience with JAWS and the Pac Mate, mostly, although I agree that these things are seriously overpriced. That, in my opinion, is where the bug is. lol.
Good things cost good money! Lol
Good things? I doubt that in the past 3 versions of jaws, not anything good has come with it.
I've heard there seems to be no difference between JAWS10 and JAWS11. JAWS is a good program, however, or at least in my opinion. It's all about the user's needs. I don't think there will ever, at any point in the existence of screen readers, be a program that everyone agrees is the best, hands down.
Yes, good things cost good money, but it shouldn't be that much money for it. Or, if it must be that much money, there should be a payment plan so you don't have to pay all at once.
Credit cards, loans from banks, friends? Savings? Shopping for the best price on it? I've seen the professional version for as low as $800. Let them stick to software, get your loans from another source. Lol
Oh an I forgot get in college if you can. In the riight states, and with the right idea why you want to go you will get this program, or Window Eyes. School does a body good. Smile.
So does milk! LOL! I remember the days when that was its catchphrase. Milk, it does a body good. Getting back on topic, I'll be the first to admit that I have had some good experiences with FS tech support, but they were far, far outweighed by the bad ones. And I agree with Ocean Dream. If FS is going to continue to charge the prices they do, they ought to offer payment plans the way GW Micro does, at least for their screen readers even if not their notetakers. It'd probably be much easier to buy a piece of software on time payments than a notetaker. I think that option should be available for those who are unable for whatever reason or unwilling to resort to loans or other agencies to pay for them. Sometimes even if you have a good, credible reason for wanting or needing the product in question those agencies can be difficult to work with. That's why I didn't even bother with the local Commission for the Blind when I decided to switch to Window-Eyes.
never have issues with outlook express and jaws, perhaps it will be a good idea to let someone sighted to take a look on it, it may be a bug of outlook express itself rather than jaws.
i've no encounter any sluggishness on any website yet, but there's heeps of thing that jaws does anoy enough as far as webpage goes.
when other screen reader such as window eyes, and SAToGo can handle flesh without any major issue, jaws always can't seems to handle the job, and see no major improvement over there since jaws4 till now.
there's no major update from jaws 8 to 9, hardly aware of any at all. from 9 to 10, well, there's some great fitures that FS throw in, and from 10 to 11, can't really tell, since i haven't have the time to update mine yet.
for someone who can't afford FS product, maybe a good idea to mget a mortgage, like how you get a mortgage for a house to pay for the FS products. i think or perhaps, FS should start some sort of a loan account, for users that can't afford to pay upfront, and aint capable to get a credit card or any kind of those sort. and maybe, we can all use forereel as the loan department manager.
800+$ is maybe a small amount for you forereel, but for some, it is hell lots of money to pay upfront. maybe perhaps, you are reach enough to give us some loan? let see, we have around 5000 users that may need to upgrate, that will only cause you about 400000$ over all. and, we all need this money upfront... in order to satisfy FS, you know.
It seems to me that if you know what your talking about, its a better experience. Example: my jaws 11 locking code changes, and I called FS tech support to get my keys reactivated. When they asked me why, I told them I have windows seven, and I am keep having to reactivate my jaws. They gave me a reset, and gave me a number to call if it ever happened again. When it did, I called that number, and that guy knew right what I needed, and how to get it working right.
Yeah. That's pretty good. I think that once you have purchassed the product, the service from then on is great. And, yes. I will admit that every JAWS key I've ever owned was purchased by a school related company, and not myself.
Hey, I love jaws but absolutely hate freedom's support. They are rude and half the time people on this site have fixed my probs in half or more the time that freedom takes. Sorry to sound so harsh but you people have no clue the crap I have been through with those people.
Well said forereel. I’ve dealt with coders and designers before. It’s not they don’t want to fix it, but they simply can’t do it. You got to remember the other half of the problem, Microsoft.
Music master: the good thing is, without it, you won’t be able to read the page
I’ve had never encountered those problems the first poster talks about.
Also, because I am so kind, polite, and know what I am talking about there is absolutely no problems. The people there has never been rude to me. Once because of a miscommunication I was transferred all over the company, though.
Oh, and I hate school purchased keys!!!! You can’t do anything when you want to!!!!
I agree with the last post. lol.
There is a huge difference between calling FS and saying "Jaws sucks, I can't surf the net with it", or "Jaws sucks, my Outlook crashed" and doing some testing on your own, figuring out the problem approximately, having your serial number and such ready and then call with a specific question. I have my issues with FS, especially why they spend huge amount of resources on "ResearchIt", to my mind one of the most useless things I've seen recently, it's called Google people.
With my recent testing though Jaws came out best with Internet Explorer, better than Window Eyes, Hal or System Access. NVDA is fantastic with Firefox but they seem to hve made the explicit decission not to support IE. Given where their funding comes from I can understand that, but on the other hand it does limit the screen reader's usefulness, as so many users with little technical knowledge who just get a computer and want to surf are not going to bother installing a new browser, and IE is the default browser on most machines, for better or worse.
Oh yes. JAWS is a very good screen reader, and if you call in with a logical question and your information so they can help you better, then you're likely to be treated well. It's like most companies. They have good staff and crappy staff as well. It's not the company but the staff who work there that sometimes cause you grief.
Being a tech support person myself i agree that the more you know what you are talking about and have a specific question the easier your time will be. Unfortunately less tech savy people call don't describe the issue accurately then gets agitated and upset when they feel they aren't getting through and then someonetimes will get an attitude back from the tech person. Unfortunately not all tech support people have the patience for that line of work i guess. but still you can't blame the company on a whole for that. I 2 have had to call back at times and get another person because yes it also goes the o other way where its the person providing support thats in the dark about technology.
Jaws and outlook...
When I write emails, Jaws eventually crashes. It comes up with the same weird message. The longer the email, the more likely it is that will happen.
It is often necessary to write long emails because of my committee work.
I send my emails as html.
How can I fix the problem?
Wow. I've never had that issue.
Should this be in the "Geeks Are Us" board instead?
Uninstall outlook, and use thunderbird?
What is Thunderbird? I suppose another mail client?
Ooh me as financial manager? Smile. I'm sorry, but this issue of things costing money is nothing I created, nor can change. There are things I'd like I don't have either. Smile. I'll post my list and ask for donations. Let's start with the beach house?
Hello Everyone,
All I say on this thread, is I'm normally a loyal Freedomscientific customer, or in my case, living in the UK, FS/the UK dealer I got it from originally in 1998, starting with JFW 3.2! LOL/:) (The dealer I got it from in the UK being Sight And Sound Technology)! :O
I have had a problem with JFW 10.0 losing all its lives, which, at the UK largest exhibition for visual impairment, called SightVillage, I did talk to the "boss" as it were Eric damery, and also, to Sight And Sound regarding this, which stumped them somewhat, but, I've been advised in the UK, by Sight And Sound, to graduate, to JFW 11.0, and will do that, before the lives get lost again (UM JAWS' lives I mean LOL ), as, they say, JFW 11.0 had this problem with Windows Seven users, though, that doesn't help me, as I still using Windows XP SP3!
OK that'll be it for me on this thread! :)
Kind regards to All,
Timothy Bamber AKA Timber on The Zone
Your post is confusing. All it lives? If you have SXP 11 works fine with it, but state your probably better and maybe I can help you.
He's using lives as a metaphor for keys.
I will say that I've always used jaws and I never had a problem. Sure some little things now and again, but everything has a work-around.
I use JAWS, and a Pac Mate now. Both have their flaws, like every other computer program and device out there, but I have to say, I really get a lot of use out of both.
I guess I'm just not picky.
That's a good thing. Lol.
hey all,
I use jaws ten, and have not had any problems. back awhile ago, about 5 or so months ago, jaws refused to read anything, would not read outlook express, Etc Etc Etc. of course I thought jaws was the problem, however I was wrong. mom came in, looked at my screen and told me it was flipped around sideways. my point is that sometimes it's the computer, not the screen reader that is the problem. maybe you should have a sighted person look at your outlook, and see if maybe something happened to it.
if have to comment on this board after reading everything i use jaws and have used jaws sense i was in grade school. Yes jaws has its issues like every screen reader but it gets better with every release i like the research it feature but do agree that it is a waste of time. I ownly like it for the fact that i can track UPS and fed x things and check the weather on the fly. i've beta tested for jaws for the last three realeses they have done a good job fixing things before the public betah. Yes i feel that freedom scientific needs to changes the way they do cirtain things. I do have a work around to make it so windows 7 does not quit deauthorzing jaws
sometimes, a jiggling of the system is in order.
I remember when jaws didn't have built-in speech so you had to use this hardware synth. Well it was annoying so I don't complain when something goes wrong.
I used to be a staunch JAWS user until about three years ago when I was using I think version 7.0 or 7.1 in college. Well I had to download pdf documents as part of one of the classes and JAWS wouldn't read them properly. It read each line as a single word. So then I downloaded a demo of Window-Eyes. THe first thing was that WE read them without problems. THen I discovered the payment plan which allows the average schmoe to pay for it, albeit slowly. But you do get unrestricted access as you pay for the product. No such dice with Freedom to be Idiots. And I also don't like how they've contracted many agencies for the blind to use and teach their products because often the client isn't told of any other options that might be available.
Jaws works fine with pdf but you have to configure the acrobat reader.
That's the point. You don't even have to do that with Window-Eyes as I found out. Maybe it helps for some types of documents but it wasn't necessary for the sort of stuff I was reading.
I see.
Yeah. There are a lot of areas where, in my opinion at least, Window-Eyes works much better than JAWS and with a minimum of configuring of either Window-Eyes or whatever application you're trying to use. And on the rare occasions when I've had to use it I've found GW Micro's tech support staff to be much more helpful than those at FS. I liked JAWS better back when it was just Henter-Joyce. The same is true of the older Blazie Notetakers.
Never used window-eyes so I wouldn't know.
JAWS likes to crash on me. It doesn't do it as often in the later versions, but 9 used to do it constantly. Like anything though, it's a work in progress.
The main difference betweent the two screen readers is that jaws runs off of it's own scripts. Hell, it has it's own language! Window eyes is more like...well...a typical program (:)) but I still like jaws.
Well each is going to have its own supporters and they're going to stand by their chosen product for a variety of reasons. But I lost a considerable amount of respect for FS after they sued Serotek over the word Freedom and even more after they sued GW Micro over a placemarker. The sad part is that, at the time at least, the placemarker implemented in JAWS had no practical use since while it would continue to mark the same spot on a web page if the page was updated, it wouldn't be marking the same information. So if you had marked a specific block of text to return to it later, you could return to the placemarker you had set and it would be in the same spot, but the actual text might have changed due to the altered layout of the page. If you did the same thing in Window-Eyes, even if the web page was updated and the layout changed, the marker would be marking the information you wanted to return to, even if it was now in a different location. Granted FS may have corrected this by now, I wouldn't know, but the fact that GW Micro got it right the first time speaks volumes in my book. I just feel that FS had no grounds for their lawsuit, either one of them really.
My first version of JFW was 3.3. I then got 3.7, and when I switched to Windows XP, I got 4.02, then 4.5 and finally, 5. I couldn't get the electronic authorisation to work, even though I called them on it. Thankfully, I didn't pay for it, since I was still in school, but I wanted something else. I tried WindowEyes, thinking that it would be easy to use, since I'm a VocalEyes user. But I got confused. Admittedly, I didn't play with it much, so I'm sure that contributed to the situation. But the main problem that I had with JFW was that it couldn't read Greek. This is before Loquendo's Greek synth and Acapella's Dimitris. So I switched to Hal and used it for several years with 6, 7 and then 8 and switched to Cicero for scanning, until I realised it couldn't read two language on one page. Then, I discovered the joy of NVDA and ESpeak. Gradually, I switched completely to it so that now, I only use the latest JFW demo for things that NVDA can't handle. My problem with the modern versions of JFW is that they're huge and while some of the features are cool some are just plain annoying and should never have been changed. I can't think of them off-hand, since I'm not running the program at the moment. As for Freedom Scientific, I remember when they were Blazie Engineering and I had the Braille Lite 2000. That machine was horrible and I couldn't wait to get something else. So when it came time for me to go to college in 2002, I got a Braille Note and liked it alot better. Plus, the people at Humanware are amazing! I contacted FS to ask about some older tech and they said they'd forward my message to the proper channels but never did. All the other companies were much nicer and more helpful, even if it was only to tell me that they had nothing in stock. I still have the Braille Lite and might use it as a synth if I need to, but first, I need a new battery for it, since it won't charge now no matter what I do. That said, I adore my Braille Blazer, which I could also use as a synth for a desktop.
Jfw has a great language package that I'm sure has
I agree with Tiffanitsa. I didn't much care for the Braille Lite or the Braille N' Speak. I don't mind the BrailleNote so much but use it little now that I have my laptop.
I still use the braille display though.
The braille display on my Braille Lite is pretty much shot. The one on the BrailleNote kept giving me electric shocks because I sweat alot, so I only used it very rarely. One thing that I do like about the Braille Lite, aside from the fact that I can hook it up to a PC running DOS, is that the system is very simple and straight forward to use. For example, you could just enter the number of a file and it would open. From what I remember, you didn't have to go into a menu with all sorts of things just to write things. On the flip side, my BrailleNote uses the same voice as my KeyNote Gold synth, which I love and can connect to the net. I've heard that it's possible with the Braille Lite too but I've never tried it and I'm not sure if it can connect to the web or just to certain bbs systems or ftp servers or something.
I found the Braille Lite system grossly illogical but then again mostly by the time I could afford to get a portable device it was Windows Mobile. You never knew when an option would let you edit, or cycle with the space bar, it had a really weird UI in my opinion. so what some call easy or simple is not for everyone. I never found that thing simple. Selecting and moving text was a beast, and I never did totally learn that. I never really figured out how to make a mental map of its UI / even know what prompt I was on half the time.
all Ican say is that i'm glad I don't care for neither jaws or wineyes now that i'm using NVDA. i've hurd all the stuff that fs has done in the past to ppl like serotech and gwmicro, and it just well, makes me feel like they wanna be the one and only one who wants to be the leader and no one else. just doesn't make a lot of since to me. i've been told some horible stuff about jaws 11, too much stuff to really go into at this point. wonder who the hell fs is gonna try and su next? hope to god it aint nv access... ok. done now
Wow. I've never heard of those lawsutes before this. That's insane. Just goes to show that people will sue over just about anything to get money.
I agree. I have no respect for Freedom to be Idiots. What little I might have had vanished when I learned of their lawsuit against Serotek and went into negative numbers after I heard of their lawsuit against GW Micro. I never did hear how that one turned out. I know they won their lawsuit against Serotek but I never heard how it went with GW Micro.
The braille lite is slapped together wierd but I like it for the braille display and almost never use the voice.
Hi, I have read all these topics, and I agree, Jaws is just going down hill! I mean who needs the research it feature? We could do that, and possibly better, with just google, word-webb, or wikipedia! I personally use NVDA, and nothing else! Yes, no window-eyes, no jaws, no system access, my family and I live in a trailor-park, we don't have the money to pay for that crap that shouldn't cost a thing! Do eyes cost anything? Does a monitor cost anything for that matter? No! A monitor usually comes with the computer! And if it doesn't, it sure doesn't cost anything like jaws!
True. But at least GW Micro offers not one but two payment plans for Window-Eyes that allow the average schmoe to purchase the program on time and, more to the point, also allow unrestricted use of the program during that payment period. Then of course you can install the payment plan copy on up to three separate computers if need be and the full copy on as many machines as necessary. Greedom sure doesn't do that. Ask Greedom Scientific for something like that and you'd probably be lucky if all that happened was you were laughed off the phone. And I have a sneaking suspicion that even if Greedom did at some point offer payment plans for JAWS they would come with riddiculous stipulations that would make it not worthwhile. They'd probably add interest if you for whatever reason missed a payment one month. At least GW Micro offers a reasonable grace period in case for whatever reason funds just aren't there from time to time. I'm sorry to all JFW users but I liked JAWS back when it was still the sole product of Henter-Joyce. Back then the program actually seemed to work fairly well most of the time. That and to be quite frank the Tech Support was much better. Same was true on the rare occasions when I needed to contact Blazie Engineering. Their products worked better I think before they decided to merge.
Freedom scientific is verry flexible. I was able to tell them I lost a copy and they gave me a new one no questions asked and I could use the same key. One can use that as a work around. They just don't want you installing it everywhere and cracking the damn key willy-nilly.
Wow. I'm surprised. They've never been what I'd call flexible when I've dealt with them, which I have had to do from time to time. Not to mention that as I said before you had to change some settings in either JAWS or a specific program sometimes if it didn't work properly the first time. You rarely have to do that in Window-Eyes. And while i don't agree with cracking software I can definitely understand why someone might choose to crack JAWS since it's virtually impossible for the average blind schmoe to pay for it on his or her own and, as we all know it can sometimes be very difficult to get financial assistance even if we have a justifiable and provable reason for needing the product.
The suit isn't about money it's to keep other companies from using their hard earned ideas or tech developments. If you work hard for years, come up with an idea, release it, and I just say that's nice and put it in to my product you'll sue me. Lol
It's called intilectual property.
Yes. what ever the post is about my answer is yes. I am posting this even before I read the post.
Wow, always a good thing to do. lol.
Thing is that the placemarker has actually been in Window-Eyes for some years. It's been my experience that GW Micro not only seems to get features right the first time, to where they'll actually have practical use, and they don't rush their updates the way Greedom Science Fiction does. I downloaded and played with the latest version of JAWS and I was struck by the irony that Window-Eyes isn't even at version 8 and it's far more stable by far, at least from my observations, than the latest version of the Shark.
fs feels rushed because they have more customers and are thus under pressure to put out the product.
I don't think they'll continue to have more customers if the quality of their products and their customer service continue to deteriorate. More and more people will drift over to Window-Eyes, Hal, System Access or whatever else there is. Personally I don't think that FS really rushes on account of the customers. They probably rush so they can say they put out updates more frequently than their competition. That may be true as far as GW Micro goes, but the folks at GW use that time to research customer requests and suggestions and incorporate them where possible and make sure that they work as well as possible. True Window-Eyes 7.2 does seem to act a bit weird with some web sites like YouTube but this is a fairly minor inconvenience since all I go there for is to watch old Rescue 911 videos and videos of Irish drinking songs. Getting back to the point though, FS rushes and it seems the more they rush the more I notice a definite drop in the quality of their products. Of course I noticed a drop pretty much from the moment Henter-Joyce and Blazie Engineering murged to become Greedom Science Fiction. I won't even get started on their riddiculous lawsuits against Serotek and GW Micro (I hope to god they didn't actually win their lawsuit against GW)> If they did I'll definitely have lost what little faith I might still have in the legal system.
That is because gw has less customers and have time to address more conserns.
Like I said I don't think they'll continue to have fewer customers if the quality of FS products continues to decline. And I doubt it's because GW Micro has fewer customers. I imagine they have at least as many customers as Greedom. But like I said they actually adress the more important customer concerns. And the fact that Window-Eyes is accessible with more programs rightout of the box than JAWS...well it's hardly surprising that I'm hearing more and more people, even state agencies who were at one time contracted with Greedom, talk about drifting away to other options.
how about how GW has released like what is it now, 4 or 5 products in the last 3 months. they need to fix the stuff they have, not flood the market with hundreds of products with basic features.
do'nt you think that's what they are trying to do? fix the stuff as well as release new things. anything can happen if you have a good developer team that knows how to do a job, anything. One of my friends who has been an avid jaws user has had so many problems out a jaws 11 on her xp pc, well, when i gave her NVDA, she started to fall in love with it, maby after about a week or 2 of usage. she still uses jaws for her sr of choice, but she told me she said she douts if she is gonna stay with jaws for to much longer becuase of how high the upgrading thing costs, and she said she is just gonna stick with NVDA if that's the case. I'm hopeing pritty soon I can turn her into a power NVDA user such as myself and a few of my other friends.
I support NVDA whole heartedly. No, I don't like it as much as JAWS, but it's ligitimently free, and I think it will only get better in time. If I had more money in the bank, I would donate to the project. I really don't mind doing that when they're working hard to make free, yet highly functional software.
certainly, i'm quite impressed with NVDA now. the only things it seems to struggle with are some of the slightly more advanced sections of win 7 and it still doesn't seem to like aim related things, mind you i haven't usede it a lot in there yet.
I like nvda and have the vertion that runs right on my external drive...good when I'm working on someone's computer.
Aside from the many problems with some applications that NVDA has the only other thing I really don't like about it is that it runs off SAPI. Oh I use SAPI when absolutely necessary (usually to create little comic sketches making fun of things), but it's perfectly possible for the average computer user to break the SAPI on their machine without ever either meaning to or being aware that they've done anything until they try to use a SAPI voice. And while the Deluserlex.exe file available on Jim Kitchen's game web site, GW Micro and other places can fix most problems it doesn't always work. And sometimes depending on what operating system a person is using it can be difficult to implement some of the other fixes that are available if you don't know your computer more or less by heart or at least the important directories. Getting back on topic though I just found out something that irrevocably destroyed any chances of Greedom Science Fiction ever regaining favor with me. If you check out www.blindbargains.com and look under Latest Bargains, there's an article called Lasuit ROundup or something along those lines, which talks about two new lawsuits this travesty of a company has filed. One is against a nonprofit organization for blind children in Arizona. And while I do agree that if this foundation has indeed violated the terms of their contract with Greedom in some way some sort of action would have to be taken, but suing them is about as low as you can go. And on top of that Greedom is apparently suing the US government to collect on this lawsuit.
It's business folks. When you have an agreement in place and the company doesn't abide by it you sue. It happens all the time in the real world with mainstream companies. To pretend freedom doesn't have the right to do this simpley because they are a blindness company is just not sinceable. There to with the suit against the government, you're owed 35000 dollars and you own a business and you're not paid, guess what, you're doing the same thing. If you allow business practices to affect how you feel about a company, chances are there are very few products you'd actually buy. It's amazing the standards folks want to hold FS too when they won't hold those same standards for other blindness companies, or even other mainstream companies for that matter. Products and services should be judged bassed on their performance and merrit, not based on the latest litigation.
I completely agree with the last post; thank you.
I quite like JAWS, but as a company, I really don't like Greedom. And....greedom? Lol! I'll have to remember that one.
We all have our favorites I guess.
I'm not much of a fan of Jaws myself,but I mus say that it's always important to respect others as far as those products. Some like it and some don't. The same goes for Apple and their products. To put it plain and simple, if you don't like a product, don't buy it. If you bought it and you don't like it, bring it back to whatever store you bought it from.
It's a little harder to do that with the Shark, especially if you didn't buy it yourself. Because state agencies here in the US are by andlarge contracted to teach and use Greedom's projects. And as far as I'm concerned Greedom's latest law suit is just as frivelous as their last one against GW. Only reason I didn't read the document regarding the suit end to end is that I don't understand legalese. But from what I was able to determine Greedom's reason for suing this nonprofit organization was just as riddiculous as their reason for suing GW Micro.
Say what you will, but there are a lot of folks working good jobs today because of jaws. Take the other 3 major screen readers in to a job setting and see how far you get with custom applications. Up until what 3 years ago, GW micro just introduced scripts in to their software, an act wich they swore off for years essintially saying their software was good enough to stand up on it's own without scripting! Recently, I did an evaluation for a client, and he wanted to use window eyes in a call center, something I certainly don't have a problem with as I do own both products. However, once installed WE simpley wasn't able to handle the data base with any reliability and without custom scripts, so a quick install of jaws, and bam reading quickly labled form fields, and he's making $14 an hour now working a job. SO, I guess my question is if you're put in a situationn such as that, do you hold tight to your principles.
As for the law suit, sorry you don't have to understand legal ease, Just a basic understanding of business and the dealer distributor relationship, and you can see there has to be actions available when disagreements arise.
I agree that lawsutes after lawsutes really does get a bit much, and that many of them really aren't necessary, but that doesn't necessarily make the company bad.
if fs looses both of these, it will be a failtle blow to them. that's all I can say. jaws yes you do need to get scripts for surtain programs for it, but for win-eyes, most applications work right out athe box with it, and you hardly ever have to configure stuf for it. but as i've said before, I use neither of them, strictly NVDA for here. and as soon as I can afford a mack I probably wont be using windows anymore. at least I hope. unless it's for something that the mack can't do. but all in all, fs is just going completely crazy. and btw, if anyone wondered hwo won that case betwene them and gw micro, gw did.
Well, when you think about it, there's really no difference between Window Eyes and Jaws now because they both support scripting in general. Technically, the differece between Jaws and Window Eyes is that Jaws uses its own scripting language, whereas Window Eyes doesn't. I do agree that this lawsuit after lawsuit stuff gets a bit old.
Business is what it is. You don't like it, don't get the product.
I don't think the FS VS. GW Micro debate will ever end. Lol.
It won't end. It's all about the money.
That's certainly true for Greedom Science Fiction, otherwise their upgrade fees wouldn't be so riddiculous and they would offer payment plans for their screen reader the way GW Micro does. I hope FS does lose these latest law suits since quite frankly I haven't had any respect for them since even before I switched to Window-Eyes. I've heard far too many stories from JAWS users who were forced to basically purchse the program again in full because the CD they got was defective. One fellow in particular purchased a Dongle only to find it was defective, but when he called Tech Support they made him purchase another one, at full price. So if I ever have kids and if one of them turns out to be blind or even just visually impaired, I may let them know that they have the option to use the Shark should they choose to do so, but I'm going to make sure they know there are other options available if they want to try them since it's highly unlikely their school or Voc Rehab agency will do so. Mine certainly didn't.
No. I don't agree with FS's payment plans, or lack there of. Like I said, I quite like JAWS, but as a company, well, they're doing what many greedy company's do.
4% of the blind community use voice over, 24% use window-eyes, and 74% use jaws. makes me wonder. are they really wanting to use jaws or are the vock rehab makeing them use it and not telling them there other choices? good christ. and I agree that the fight betwene fs and gw wont end, but for christ sakes this sueing shit is getting old as hell, and even more laughible to me. again, makes me thank my lucky stars i'm with NVDA and haven't had any regrets about it at all.
Hey, get an external synth or use the text to speech engine or something but leave the company to do business the only way they know how.
As someone who writes scripts daily for a living, WE scripting still doesn't always make it on par with JFW. Yes, Window eyes often works out of the box with standard applications but when you put it in the work place with CRM packages or accounting data bases, it often falls down. Also, as someone who provides evaluations, I always demonstrate both window eyes and jaws, and recommend to VR whatever the customer wants, provided it can be used in their given situation. To me, I don't care what a companies practices are, as I understand business. I want a product that can earn someone a living and while NVDA system access and voice over are wonderful products, they often arn't appropriate for business/ employment settings.
I agree with the last poster, but I think for these that don't work in the industry, but only use screen readers for every day use it is difficult to explain the work that has to go between a screen reader application in a job situation then in a home setting. Jaws has been around long enough, and was started for the work force, so is simply ahead of the others on many things. They must protect themselves from other coping their hard work. I have never had an issue with tech support, and I really belive that issues that come about with tech support are as much the fault of the consumerthen the supporting agent. My reasoning for saying this is the support agent is doing a job, and if that agent is not to your liking you can call back, write a complaint, and using reason and correctness you will get your issue solved. The support agent on the other hand can not write a complaint on the consumer, and must except what the consumer gives, as in verbal abuse. If a person has to pay for another product their has to be a reason. Defective products are provable.
I don't care when I called Tech Support, every rep I got I always got the feeling they were questioning my inteligence just from the tone of their voice, especially if I made a suggestion that maybe, just maybe, might have made the program better. Maybe this is just my own experience but I noticed that WIndow-Eyes works out of the box with more regular applications than any version of the Shark that I ever tried. And I firmly believe that while a certain percentage of those who use JAWS do generally enjoy it (although I'll never be able to understand why now that I've sampled the competition), there are a fair number of those who use it because it's what they were taught and they weren't told of their other options. As I said I certainly wasn't and after version 4.0 of the Shark it crashed on me I don't know how many times. And then of course there was my gripe with the poor Sapi support.
i've used jaws from almost day one, and yes i've tired other options. never liked it much. My main problem with window eyes is, i've never managed to install it on win vista or 7, where as jaws just installs it's dirvers and away it goes, no problems. I've been switching more and more towards voiceover lately, and for some one who says it's not designed for business, i must disagree with you on that.
Something I've noticed about NVDA is that it works very similarly to JAWS, with the exception of a few rare key commands, of course. I really hope the NVDA project keeps up the good work. I really think their screen reader could be the next best thing, and if kids start using it in schools, that will cut back on a lot of the cost spent on screen readers, and can allow more to be spent on the equipment itself, and perhaps training. Of course, if NVDA becomes more widely used, they'll probably start charging something for it, but so far, I really like where they're going with it.
I'm not saying voice over isn't powerful, and a great screen reader, but how many work sights are using the mac, take in to your next emplyer and tell them you'll use your mac to do your work, they'll simpley tell you there software isn't compatible with the mac platform. How many clients have I set up for work at home jobs, and none of the VPN or remote platforms will work with the mac, so then what. I'm not argining usefullness I'm pointing out practical use for software in real situations that earn you an income.
I foresee a lot of people improving their compatibility with Macs though, in the near future. They're becoming more and more popular now adays.
yeah. they deffinetly are.
Wow. I've never had problems installing Window-Eyes on Vista. Wouldn't know about 7 since I don't have it. But I've spoken to people who do use it and haven't had any problems.
you over look one powerful thing the mac has the ability to do, virtual machines. use that to do what the company wants, but you can do your documents and the like with the mac OS. I may try windows eyes again, to see what happens, but never have managed to get it to work
Problem is that Macs are expensive these days, even the Laptops can run pretty close to and in some cases upwards of two grand. I may get one at some point but not for a while yet I don't think.
The only thing designed for business is the brain. It's great, it works right out of the box. No drivers, no hardware issues, just wake up, and bingo!
Hahaha. I like that one.
That is true I suppose.
heh, indeed. as for a mac laptop costing 2 grand? not one bit. try 1100, 1300 with the apple care protection. oh, and the mac mini is only 500 bucks, and that's a micro desktop
yeah. exactly. getting a mack mini myself whenever I can afford it.
I have actually seen some that ran two grand and more. They may be uncommon but I've seen them.
$2000? That was back in the day when the iPhone and all that first came out. The prices have dropped now. Even the iMac isn't $2000.
Not true if you want a macbook pro with larger than a 13: screen you can easily touch $2k. Entry level machines are around 1100 but over that the price jumps a bit. Take a look at the apple store even the new mac mini is touching $700!
Right now a refurbed macbook pro with 18 inch screen $1999.
Hmmm, well when the time comes for me to get a new computer I may look into that, although I'll probably always keep a Windows machine around for some things. After all game developers haven't explored the Mac much yet, at least not in our market. Some are moving in that direction but not quite.
Speaking of games for the Mac, Draconis entertainment is developing some accessible games for that specific platform. It'll be nice to hear what some Mac users think about them once they're fully developed.
I looked on the fS web site and am glad I haven't upgraded jaws yet from 10. With a quick look at the bugs on 11 that they had to fix, I think I'll see how people do with 12 before I upgrade. Bought open book 9 though; it seems pretty good on the demo. So this camera deal, Pearl I think it is, can you scan documents with it like a restaurant menu and the like? Is it that portable?
i'm using the jaws 12 beta, and they did a lot of bug fixing with it from the whats new page. plus i think they did a good move with settings center, that makes things much simpler to set up
The pearl is not stand alone, so while you could take it with you you'd need a netbook, or laptop to connect it to. It's a great device I've used it several weeks now, and I do love it!
I wonder when FS is going to getoff their butts and releae the PAC Mate update? I feel like tossing my PAC Mate, getting an iPad and a Mac, and sticking with those. Technically speaking, they're a heck of a lot cheaper than Windows, regardless of how much a Windows computer costs. You could purchase a $1000 computer, but then you'd have to pay another $1200 or so for the screen reader and the SMA. I could just pay $700 for a 64 gb iPad and $1500 for the Mac. I don't have to spend $5600 on something that isn't worth that much. The thing that pisses me off is that FS makes it seem like the PAC Mate and JAWS are all that and a bag of chips, but it's really not.
And when I said $5600, I meant on the crap mate.
To be fair, I've always had pretty good support from FS, but the thing I do have a lot of arguments with is the prices of their products and blind products in general and my main argument at the minute with them at the minute is the waste of an SMA upgrade that is jaws 12. You can do just the same in jaws 12 as you can with previous versions and the only thing they really did was put a settings manager for those who can't be asked to go and look for the settings and supposedly make it possible to run with 2 monitors, which you could do anyway. One thing I think would be cool, although not a lot of use to most totally blnd people who don't use the screen, would be to include mouse support, for example to allow the user to hear what they are on when they move the mouse seeing as in a way that is sometimes quicker than using a load of keyboard shortcuts. Mind you, I haven't really got any room on my desk to move the mouse around at the minute anyway! Hahahaha!
window-eyes has that type of support, which is damn sure cool. i'll never forget one time when I accidentally turn on sticky keys or something on my aunts vista pc and didn't know how the hell to stop it and I tried to use the mouse to see where the hell I was with jaws and couldn't see a damn thing. thankfully someone told me the shortcut to turn it off.
Jaws 12 rocks. It hasn't lied to me yet. Lol
I can't even use the beta fully since I have no keys left.
I want to try JAWS 12. It looks promising.
Well I may go back to using JAWs in a work setting but only, and I mean ONLY, if extensive work with Window-Eyes proves that it doesn't work with whatever software is used at whatever business I end up working at. But never again will I use JFW as a primary screen reader.
I don't blame you at all for that. i've hurd some stuff that they say jaws 12 is good or is suppose to be good, but i aint about to try it, not me, uh uh. NVDA for everything still here on my end of things.
btw, has anyone hurd the results of the lawsutes that fs was in? just was curious
I really don't have an issue with jaws. As I have stated, I remember the days of hardware synths so I don't complain. Also, remember the stuttering jaws used to do? That was the worst.
Well, I must say I'm going over to mac as soon as I can get the money to get one. I use JAWS 10, and while it works OK, it's nothing compared to my mac experience at HTNA.
me tooo. i'm gonna be going strate to mack as well when I can get myself one. and as i've said before on here, i don't use jaws at all, NVDA for everything, and if there is something NVDA can't read, SA to go
I'm lucky enough to have gotten a samobile drive for students, so that is a big help.
Anyone that wishes to try Jaws 12 can. It is just a Beta, so doesn't require a key or anything. After it is released then you have to buy it, or have an upgrade SMA, but just to use it no.
I tried it, and you still have to have a key.
The prices on their SMA packages are riddiculous. GW Micro charges half that if not even less and for more or less the exact same thing.
And serotek doesn't charge anymore. The key word here is anymore. They used to, and some websites are still out of date, because they don't anymore.
I certainly respect those who want to stick with Windows, but for those of us who are Mac lovers, I think all the prices for the Windows screen readers are ridiculous. You can buy any type of Mac and get accessibility out of the box, and because of that, I think that everybody should have that same opportunity with Windows. But that's not going to happen as far as Windows goes because now we have the companies like GW Micro and Freedom Scientific trying to make some money from the screen readers that they produce. In my opinion, that's kind of a sad situation, but I guess we're just going to have to live with it.
Is it a sad situation that Gw micro and Freedom Scientific are trying to make money, or is it a sad situation, that Microsoft for nearly 20 years now, has made nothing more than a pathetic attempt at built-in access in their narrator program. Last I checked, the purpose for a business was to make money, and this is exactly what AT companies are doing.
If we want someone to blame, let's start taking shots at mainstream companies who have an opportunity to build in access, and who choose not to do so. Take Rim's new play book for example. A prime opportunity to build in access for their visually impaired potential customers, but they'd rather not. You know what apple is doing? They are making money on a product, as they chose to include access to products not based on a good feeling, they knew they could increase their market, by targeting a demographic that wasn't tapped by other mainstream manufacturers. As long as manufacturers go on ignoring the fact that access could be built in from the foundation of a product, you'll still have room for specialized companies to make a buck, and rightfully so!
Yes, it is a sad situation that GW Micro and Freedom Scientific are making money because JAWS and Window Eyes shouldn't even exist. If Apple can make their products accessible right out of the box, why can't Microsoft do it? Now you know the reason why Apple is worth much more than Microsoft right now, at over $260,000,000,000. They're making all their money because their products are accessible to everyone, including those with disabilities. So in the future, nobody will convince me to get a Windows machine for $1500 and pay another $900 for another screen reader, and on top of that, another $200 for an SMA. I'd rather pay $10500 for a compute that has accessibility right out of the box, no SMA's, and no extra payments.
Sorry, when I said 10500, I meant $1500. lol Can't type.
Catching up here. I've become a strict NVDA user over the last year or so and couldn't be happier. For Windows, it really is the best. I am very greatful that NVDA is free, though I do understand that other companies charge for their products if this is their employees main jobs. I'm sure most of the people who develop NVDA have other jobs. That said, the price of JFW is insane! I could understand it in the early 90's but not in 2010!
I also agree that they're trying to form a monopoly, and in many cases, have succeeded. Most state agences immediately reach for JFW and other Freedom Scientific products when it comes to equipping students for school etc. I've never dealt with Henter-Joyce but I did deal with Blazie Engineering and wasn't too impressed with their tech support or products, minus the Braille Blazer, which I adored so much that I went out of my way to find one on EBay. That said, I'm sure that there are several of their packages that i haven't yet tried and some that I'd like to find. In any case, I'd take Blazie any day over Freedom Scientific.
I love GW Micro. The people have always been very helpful and the products are great. Then again, I'm a bit partial to them for creating VocalEyes. They offered to sell me a copy for $100 but I had to refuse at the time. Now, I heard, from someone who asked more recently, that they're not offering it anymore! I really! hope this isn't true. I can't understand why they don't release it as freeware like the other DOS screenreaders if they're refusing to sell it. That's so cool that some state agencies are thinking of using WindowEyes! I hope they lose these law suits. It'll serve them right and give the other companies leadway. Maybe, they should focus on improving their products and getting the bloatware and unnecessary features out of them instead of suing their competitors. Opa!!! Gw won! Happy now.
Why the hell would they force someone to repurchase a dongle or cd, at full price no less, if the one that he/she got was defective? That doesn't even make sense! And we're supposed to respect this company?
I agree about the fact that not everyone uses this software for work. For those of us who are at home or, who work at jobs where computers aren't an issue or who work at jobs where the alternative software wouldn't cause problems, we should have a choice. New Macs are expensive, but the two or three-year-old ones aren't that bad as far as cost. But it's also a very different operating system and not everyone will feel comfortable using it. As much as I'm not a huge fan of Windows, I find it alot faster and more efficient than Snow Leopard.
Those are very good points about mainstream companies. MicroSoft is notorious for not making their products accessible, and since they pretty much have had a monopoly over the general population as Freedom Scientific has over the blind one, we pretty much had to live with it in the past. Despite my dislike of how VoiceOver runs, I must credit Apple with trying to make a product that almost everyone can use. That said, I do wish that they would let other screenreaders be created for their products so that we could have a choice as to which one we want to use. Yes, they put in alot of effort using VoiceOver, but perhaps someone could develop a different approach that even more people would feel comfortable using.
Well, until the business world switches from a PC/windows based world to a Mac based, which I don't see happening. Windows will still be a relevant operating system. This being so, until Microsoft offers some real access support to their products companies like GW micro and FS will still be needed. Let's not have such a short memory as to forget it was only a short time ago that apple even added access to their products. Don't we recall the original iPod devices that had to be hacked up with rockbox to even add some speech. Don't we remember that until 2 years ago, iTunes was a real mess from an accessibility stand point. Apples goal isn't to add this great access for all. While they may be happy to provide this access, they still want to make a buck. Now, I own a mac, and an iPad, and love them both, but it's my access to windows based machines given to me by jaws and window eyes that really allows me to make a very comfortable living.
One other point I wanted to make.
One reason access technology is so expensive is it's customer base, and the support it has to offer. While there is such a large investment placed in the actual product, there is an equal investment from these companies to offer support. If you purchased a BNS as a one time purchase for $1400 back in 1999, and you call FS today for support on this product, guess, what their techs are going to be on the phone to answer your question. Now you purchased this product years ago, and you're still getting support for it? This specialized support is offered no where else in the real world. There are still folks who purchased and are still using jaws 5.0 guess what, if they call for support, the techs still have to give them support. So, the company made it's original money off this customer 8 years ago, and is still spending money for this customer to have support. There is such a hand holding process in the blindness community at times, and really I'm glad to hear people venturing out and trying new products, it is important to take the opportunity and learn things for yourself, but I tell you there are many out there that won't do so, and are costly consumers.
Actually, I heard recently that the Apple IIEs had built-in speech. I'm not sure about the IIGS or IIC and will have to try this on mine to see when I get them out. But there was also a huge! number of programs written for these Apples for the blind by many companies, not just Apple themselves. The number is so large, in fact, that I've actually seen far more information on those than on their DOS equivalents. Today, there is no reason why this technology needs to be so expensive. There is open source, and even when that's not used, that still doesn't explain the huge price of talking scanner software, for example. There's a big difference between less than $100 for a mainstream ocr product and several hundred for the main adaptive ones. Yet there are now products on the market, all mostly under $100, which are mostly, and even fully in some cases, accessible to the blind. Some have even been designed specifically for us. So why are the expensive ones shoved in our faces as the only alternatives?
Actually, I e-mailed Freedom Scientific and asked a few questions relating to my Braille Lite 2000 and also where I could find some of their DOS-based software. They said that they would get back to me and never did, not even to tell me that nothing is in stock or how much a new battery would cost. GW Micro, on the other hand, wrote back to me right away and so did Humanware. By far, the most helpful and agreeable, I must say, was APH. Unfortunately, no one but GW Micro had anything available. I don't see why we should be forced to use new things if the old ones work fine for us. I'm not referring for people who actually need these newer devices but to those of us who are satisfied with the older ones. This is true in the mainstream community as well as for the blind, only our's cost alot mre to update. That said, I could also see a compromise where, if you're calling about an older product, you have to pay a small fee for tech support. That way, the tech who are trained in these extra things aren't doing it all for free.
You know some of you on this board bad mouth Jaws, but use the product. That makes me laugh. If it's so bad why do you continue to keep it? It's a fact it's a solid product and Apples access can't compair not even on a daily use scale. The product is well researched, enginered, so must cost something. You buy a Mac and you still have to buy programs frore it just like you do a windows based machine. Programs cost money to develope, so the better ones like Jaws and Window Eyes will simply have to cost. People can't eat your wishes. Where will the money come from so they can live, give you almost 15 to 16 hours of tech support a day? Smile.
Perhaps because for one reason or another they're forced by circumstance to continue using it? I myself hate JAWS with a passion but will grudgingly use it on the job setting if extensive trial and error proves beyond any reasonable doubt that no other screen reader can handle whatever programs might be required to do the work. So yes they bad mouth it even while still using it. If they don't have any other options and for whatever reason can't resort to one of ther alternatives they might feel a certain resentment. I hear all this talk about NVDA and System Access and while I like the fact that both are free or at least cheap there are things both have trouble with or can't do period that JAWS might be able to handle even better than Window-Eyes. That's probably why JAWS is still used so much on the job.
I'll say this much though. I most definitely neither understand nor agree with GW Micro's stand on a free screen reader built into a computer's OS the way Apple has done. GW seems to think that including a free and seemingly fully-functional screen reader would do a great disservice to the blind community. Certainly Microsoft's pathetic attempt at built-in access, that hunk of junk they laughingly call Narrator, is a great disservice but from all I've heard Voiceover seems to work quite well. I've tried it on the IPod Touch and IPhone and at the first opportunity I'm going to try to get hold of an actual Mack computer to see how it works there as well. I suppose it's doing a disservice to GW Micro and indeed to Greedom Science Fiction as well since there's now a free alternative, but to the blind community? Actually I'm a little surprised Greedom hasn't tried to sue Apple for trying to steal their customers yet. If they'll sue Serotek over the use of the word Freedom in the name of what's now System Access and GW Micro over a placemarker of all things, I wouldn't put it past them.
hahaha Yeah. I'd love to see that one! Apple would smack them so hard they wouldn't know what hit them!
Yeh, but to pretend like Freedom is the only company in business that sues, is just not reality. Ever take a look at CNET? Apple is suing or being sued by other companies every week. In fact apple just lost a law suit recently involving a patton of all things! OH no, other companies besides freedom like to protect intelectual properties too! Personally I think software pattons are a mirky part of law, but while they exist, companies should have the ability to take advantage of those laws. Every at company exists to make money, it's the American dream, and until other manufacturers jump on board to bring costs down, they'll be higher than mainstream technology. It's an absolute impossibility to make a screenreader, or specialized OCR package that does what Jaws or window eyes does for much less than they currently cost without crippling these packages! The biggest advantage with todays AT market is, we now have choices. 15 years ago, there were not alternatives besides the 2 major players. Now, you can choose whichever screen reader meets all your needs and what meets your particular budget. We even have options of which operating system we wish to use. We've gone far a field from this original thread topic, so I'll sum up my final response here by saying. I don't think any AT company can offer the perfect experience for everyone. However, it's now a market that has opened up to where each of us has a choice what we wish to use and how we want to accomplish things. Believe it or not that's because there is compitition and law suits and all those things that go on in this market just as it does in any other tech market out there. SO, if you hate jaws, you don't have to use it, and if you don't like window eyes, don't use it. TO choose a product based on ideals and not functionality is honorable, but likeley to put you in a situation down the road, where you'll be revisiting that product that you "would just never use"!
Forereel, I think you have the wrong idea. I don't think JAWS is bad at all for what it is. I just think that freedom scientific (not greedom science fiction) hasn't worked very hard on making it better. For example, when I e-mailed them about adding Hindi, Finnish, Tiwanese Chinese, Scottish and Irish English voices, available in realspeak, to their roster of real speak solo direct voices, they flat out said no, they wouldn't do that, Thank you. Then, I found out there was an Icelandic voice, but I didn't even ask about that. So, as far as it goes, JAWS is awesome. But it could go further, and cost just a bit less, which spawned this board, which is too long anyway. Goodbye.
Nobody's saying that Greedom is the only company that sues. But it's one thing to try to protect intelectual property and whatnot and another entirely to sue because you're afraid of the competition, which to be quite frank is what I feel Greedom is doing by suing first Seroek and then GW Micro. So I wouldn't be surprised if they someday tried to sue Apple for developing a free screen reader that just might draw away some customers from JFW. Not to say that it will happen but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it did. And if they'll flatly ignore user suggestions like that? I'm sorry but hat gives me even less reason than I already had for going back to JFW. Like I said I'll do it if it's required on the job but that's as far as it would go.
My idea is just this. You have a choice. Most people bitching on here are using the product they are gbitching about to bitch. Why is that? If the "free" software is so good use it completely. Delete the offending product, burn the disc and don't call tech support at all. Use the product you believe to be better.
Well the problem is that the only free software available for Windows isn't yet up to the standards of say Window-Eyes. I've tried both NVDA and System Access (whinc in any case I don't think is entirely free) and neither of them would be worth abandoning Window-Eyes entirely for them. And anyway a lot of people can't afford to fork over the money for a mackintosh with VoiceOver or I'm sure they would do just that. So no, they're not all just bitching about it to bitch. A fair number of them are genuinely frustrated by the situation. Actually the real problem here is that when kids are in school and getting assistive tech and software from voc rehab agencies like the Commissions for te Blind they're shown just one possible option, that being the one that supposedly everybody else is using. They're not necessarily made aware of the fact that there might be other and possibly better alternatives available. And by the time they wise up they're set in their ways they don't want to change or even if they do they don't think they can. That's why I like GW Micro so much, because although their product is spendy they at least offer a means by which the average unemployed schmoe like myself could still buy the program with what's considered their own money. Yeah you have to do it on time but at least the option is there unlike Greedom. And I'm one of those who regardles of when I called or who I talked to I had lousy tech support from them during my AWS days.
Well I'm sorry, but my opinion on things that are given to you is that you deal with what you have. Now if you don't like that item, then you figure out a way to get something you like better. Lets take the pricing. People complain that for the pro version of Jaws, and even your GW the prices is to high. You say get a Mac right if you can, but a Mac cost about as much as the pro versions of GW and Jaws. Now on top of that you can't call tech support 16 hours a day, every day or the working week and have the good people at Apple explain how to use your new Voice over. Infact Voice over is not up to the place GW or Jaws is as far as use ability. In the job market, and even at home at your dwesk it just doesn't cut it completely. It's good, but... You pointed out the free stuff isn't their either, so my point is that Jaws is a sound product period. You also have to take in to account that all users are not good at using their computers. Now also you have to except that not all tech support workers are good at their jobs, but that doesn't mean that all tech support sucks. Next you have to remember that sometimes they don't know what the person calling has done to their computer, so they go by the book. They are not available to repair hardwear, nor teach computing. When people are fustrated they blame the first person that can't help them and that equals the dumb ass at tech support. Smile.The fustrated party doesn't want to admit maybe they dropped the computer in the pool, or they just plain don't know what the hell their doing. Any company with a business must earn money to keep that business running. Even the computer that Jaws runs on cost somebody something. It was not free. The software on it cost. You've got the pro edition of Microsoft office and you use 3 programs out of it, but if you don't shop the whole thing cost around 500. Should Microsoft give it away. Sighted people buy programs just like we do, and some are not happy with them. We all have a choice and I say again don't bitch with the product you are bitching about.
But to treat you like a subhuman is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned. And it's been my experience that a good many Greedom Science Fiction tech support people have a tendency to do that. I understand that they don't know what you might have done to your machine but that's no reason to talk down on you. At least on the few occasions I've had to call GW Tech Support they were at least patient with me and stayed with me until I'd resolved any programs. I actually had several Greedom folks hang up on me. And like I said, GW Micro at least offers payment plans that enable you to buy Window-Eyes on time if you should choose to do so. You don't even have that option with Greedom. And I've already said I'd use JAWS on the job if I had to but only as a last resort.
well, I promise you, when I get a mack, I aint hardly ever gonna touch windows unless I have to. i've used v o on a mack that I went and tried out, and absolutely loved it. and the reason why microsoft wont make anything as far as free accessibillity is because fs would sue them because it would be turning people away from them. pluss, even gw micro might do something to that nature.
the prices as far as jaws as most people said are just mest up. everything has to be so high these days, thank god for NVDA. and as far as getting to where window-eyes and jaws are, just give it time. I have high hopes for NVDA. and if fs did sue apple, i'd laugh because yeah they would loos that faster than you can shake a stick at. now if they tried to sue NV access? not only would my haitrid for them increase, but my laughing at them would also increase. I understand this is all about money an all that, but for christ sakes this suing shit is just gonna get old, and it is what is seriously gonna drive them flat into the ground until there is nothing left.
Evidently Apple's not afraid of Greedom since obviously they've built free accessibility into their machines. And if Greedom did sue Apple for turning people away from them I'd be laughing along with you. I haven't had the opportunity to try out VO on an actual computer but I would definitely like to. Maybe on one of her days off I'll talk my wife into taking me to a place like Best Buy so I can at least demo a Mac computer and see how it works. After all the last time I used a Mac wih a screen reader it was that horrible OutSpoken piece of crap. And I do apologize to anyone who liked and used that program but not only could I never seem to get it to do what I wanted but the speech quality was absolutely horrible. Even the old Echo synthesizer back in the days of the Apple 2E and the 2GS had better quality. At least it was intelligible, which is more than I could say for theOutSpoken voice.
some people just love to bitch. if you don't like a certain product, don't use it.
I've been a jaws user all my life, and don't ever wanna switch to anything else.
that being said, I've tried out window eyes and NVDA. while I like them both, I feel they aren't for me.
I felt it best to expose myself to other options, though, cause I think that's the only way an informed decision can be made.
I'm going to challenge the statement for a minute that people like to bitch about programs, but yet still use them. Freedom Scientific and GW Micro both make their money from agencies. And that's most of their money. Of course there are some people who aren't with an agency who buy these products, but that's pretty low compared to agency money. With that being said, agencies are the ones who stick with Windows and get the consumer what he/she needs as far as JAWS and/or Window Eyes. So the question is, how can consumers not use these products if agencies buy those products for them?
I must agree with fighter and I must say the following:
It isn't fare to come down so hard on a company. It is a business and they run things the best way they can. Sure the customer support isn't always the best but what can you do about it? All this beeing said, I wonder how that new beta runs. hmmm.
Ilumination said it the best. Not everybody has the choice of what they use since quite frankly they don't always get told that they do have other options. And while it may not be fair to come down hard on a company like Greedom it's not fair to those who have problems with their products to call up tech support and get talked down on as though they were subhuman. Having it happen once is one thing but I feel sorry for those who've had it happen to them repeatedly. And while you might say switch to something better, sometimes people just get so set in their ways with a specific product that even if they would like to switch they don't necessarily think they can. True sometimes like me they eventually just get fed up enough with the problems they have with a specific product to just make a leap of faith, so to speak, but sometimes they've been with a specific product, be it a screen reader, notetaker or what have you, so long that they almost feel it's pointless to try learning something new. And it's like I said before. The real problem is that they aren't always told that they do have other options, much less given the chance to experiment with them, and certainly not during their schooling when their assistive tech is bought and paid for by an agency. Now if something like NVDA ever gets to the same scale as Window-Eyes or JAWS and still remains affordable then definitely more people will probably feel like they have more options if JAWs and Window-Eyes don't do it for them. So no, it's not just JAWS and Freedom that I don't like, but the general policy of rehab agencies to focus on one company's products and only that company's products to the exclusion of everyone else's. And you can believe me when I say that I've been in contact with a lot of those agencies who themselves are becoming fed up enough with Freedom's business practices to be willing to at least add other products to their teaching curriculum if not abandon JAWS outright. Don't get me wrong, I liked JAWS back in the Henter-Joyce days but after they murged with Blazie I couldn't help but notice a major drop in the quality of both the product and the tech support. But I wasn't even made aware of the other possible options I had until years after my High School days.
One reason serotek's system access drive for students is good. Really. Anyone who wants one and is a student go to www.serotek.com. NVDA is free, too, so they can be aware of that, but it's just not great right now. It's good, but the comertial screenreaders do things better usually.
Like I said gifts are gifts, so if an agency buys Jaws or Windows Eyes for you use it, but if you don't like it while you have a free copy figure out a way to get what you think is better and don't upgrade it. Agencies buy these products not because they are railroaded in to buying them, they buy them because they work for most situations not just limited ones, and if you are talking a job situation Windows is going to be the OS of choice not Apple. Even at colleges and schools Windows is widely the choice.
Sure, Wayne, you have a valid point. I must also add that there are colleges that also provide Macs. My university has a room completely devoted to Macs. In our accessibility resource center, there is also a Mac there. So yes, Windows is more wide-spread in colleges and workplaces than Macs. But I must say that the Mac and the iPad are beginning to dominate the market, whether people like that or not. From an accessibility standpoint, VoiceOver on these products is starting to blossom. And since Apple is turning into a big company and surpassing Microsoft in terms of how much Apple is worth, I feel like these products will be our future. Touch screens, an app store, one click downloads and automatic installation, etc.
Jaws has been made specificly for the work place.
Apple is not beginning to "dominate the market" They are now finally becoming a more popular solution. Note the quotes!
Apple sold 3.2 Million mac computers last quarter. That's not even a 10th of PC's that were sold, so dominating the market is not even close to an accurate statement! Agencies buy windows based computers because the ultimate goal is to educate and employ consumers. If I trained you on the mac, and purchased you a mac, and you went to 99% of businesses tomorrow for a job interview, what good is your voice over experience when they need you to let's say take a call in a terminal immulation software, or utilize a SQL database or when you need access to a citrix or RDP remote session? Like it or not, for now windows is the way of business, and access to it is the way to stay gainfully employed. I personally own a mac computer, because I do lots of recording and from a production stand point, it's perfect. I also, am planning to buy an iPad this week, but these are supplimentary items, they aren't productivity items!
Here we go getting defensive. I never said it was dominating the market, I said it was beginning to dominate the market. Note the difference there. Also, I never said the iPad was for productivity, I stated that it might become part of the productivity world in the future. I'm not stupid. And I did say that Windows computers are more widespread than Macs, therefore proving the fact that I don't think that Macs are dominating the market yet.
To forereel: Macs may cost alot but not if you get an older one. Also, once you buy a Mac, the upgrades aren't even close to the price that Freedom Scientific charges for a JFW upgrade, unless you get a new machine. I personally don't like the interface of the Mac, as I've said. But I honestly can't see how it's not good for home use. What is it lacking? Sighted people may not be happy with the programs that they buy, but they also have alot more choices, ones that cost less and ones that are totally free. Many of these don't work for us.
To zackmack2000: I too have great hopes for NVDA. It's versitile and is constantly being updated. It's portability and ease of use make it ideal for those new to computing and experienced users alike. Evil people stay away from NVDA! May NV access continue to exist for a long time and make more of these beautiful things for us.
To BryanP22: Yeah, if Apple can make free accessibility, there should be no reason why MicroSoft can't do it too. And I don't think I'm wrong in saying that they tower over FS as far as size, money etc. Sure, they're big, but not when compared with MicroSoft. And holy fucking shit! Something that sounds worse than the Echo? I've gotta hear that!
illumination: Thanks for writing what was on my mind. But you also brought up another issue. These agencies mostly stick with Windows. So if someone wanted to use Mac, Linux or one of the modern versions of DOS, they're pretty much screwed. I was very lucky that the Commission gave me all that old stuff or I wouldn't have a synthesizer, (not just the Echo, which is somewhat findable but the amazing KeyNote Gold which is not) or VocalEyes. So I'd be stuck with Windows/Mac too. Even a Linux user might need a synth from time to time, so I've heard. And The DoubleTalk line is still being made. But I doubt an agency would buy one for a client unless they really begged for it.
To BryanP22: Very well said in post 162. That's exactly what I was thinking. Even when you're able to make the choice, once you learn something, you may not want to change.
To forereel: Again, you have to be aware that these other programs exist in order to think of using them, and if you're new to computers or to adaptive tech, you may truly believe that these two are all that are out there. Considering how young people start on computers these days, it might not even occurr to the person until he/she is much older. I got a BrailleNote for college not because the Commission was planning to get it but because I heard of it and asked for one.
To illumination: Sounds like a nightmare. But worse is what I heard about Apple today. As my friend said, Steve Jobs believes it's his sworn duty to keep the Apple products G-rated. My friend says he can't even type the word hell into his IPod. That's great for children but not for those of us who are passed the legel age limit.
To BigDogDaddy: There's another problem. All these agencies and people are assuming that we'll all be stuck at a desk working on a computer. Not all jobs are computer based and not everyone wants to work in those kinds of settings. I personally think they should teach practical things along with technical, thereby giving us blind people more job opportunities, but that extends passed this topic and agencies in general.
Ileni, that was exactly my point when I said earlier that agencies are sticking with Windows. If you were to ask them for a Mac, they wouldn't give you one.
To hear the voice used by outspoken, vo command right until you get to voice selecter, and vo command down to fred. Personally, if I had the choice between the two, I'd throw the echo off the roof. Actually no, I'd sell it to get the money to get my mac--finally!